Discussion:
[nznog] APE Peering
Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
2003-07-02 15:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
This announcement is more centered towards Network Administrators at ISP's
that are connected to the APE.

Net4U (www.net4u.co.nz) connected to the APE since May 2003 and since then
have been peering with a number of ISP's around the country.

We are currently looking for more ISP's to peer with and so if you feel
that we could have a domestic peering arrangement between your ISP and
Net4U, please get back to me off-list as we would be more than happy to do
so.

Regards,

Sahil Gupta
Senior Account Manager
NET4U LIMITED

Phone: 0508-263-848
Fax: 07-8582659
Mobile: 029-366-6375
Keith Davidson
2003-07-03 01:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
This announcement is more centered towards Network Administrators at ISP's
that are connected to the APE.
Net4U (www.net4u.co.nz) connected to the APE since May 2003 and since then
have been peering with a number of ISP's around the country.
We are currently looking for more ISP's to peer with and so if you feel
that we could have a domestic peering arrangement between your ISP and
Net4U, please get back to me off-list as we would be more than happy to do
so.
Well, I might have been interested in peering, except for having received
the following Spam from Net4U earlier today...

Keith Davidson

____________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED" <***@net4u.co.nz>
To: <***@wise.net.nz>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: ATTN: Systems Administrator / Management
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Hello there,
I would like to introduce Net4U Limited to you as an alternative bandwidth
wholesaler.
We currently have a large network around New Zealand. We currently supply
5 other ISP's in New Zealand with Bandwidth and supply our own customer
base with bandwidth for Dialup, ADSL, Wireless, Frame-Relay, ATM, Fiber,
Ethernet.
We connect to many providers around New Zealand and are also a peer on the
Auckland Peering Exchange (www.ape.net.nz).
64k - 2048k = $2000+GST (per megabit)
2048k - 4096k = $1800+GST (per megabit)
4096k - 10240k = $1600+GST (per megabit)
10240k = POA.
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can also
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied to
you by your current provider to us.
Above all, we can also deliver Domestic / International Traffic via a BGP
Feed on 2 Different PVC's.
Please let me know what you think of our offer.
Regards,
Sahil Gupta
Senior Account Manager
NET4U LIMITED
Phone: 0508-263-848
Fax: 07-8582659
Mobile: 029-366-6375
Neil Fenemor
2003-07-03 01:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Davidson
Well, I might have been interested in peering, except for having received
the following Spam from Net4U earlier today...
Keith Davidson
I also received a copy of that spam message, as was most disapointed
that an ISP resorts to sending spam to get business. How many other
people received it?

Neil Fenemor
Seeby Woodhouse
2003-07-03 01:59:13 UTC
Permalink
I guess that Sahil finally decided that the dust had settled enough that
he could start selling off some of his stolen bandwidth

- perhaps he's been hoarding up all the ill-gotten bits and bytes in a
big cache, and now he wants to release it to the world at a
fantastically discounted rate!

:-)

In case you missed the original Net4u story about this, here are some
links.

http://www.reseller.co.nz/Reseller/Reseller.nsf/0/86256ABD006E93FCCC256C
F4001F2C03?OpenDocument

http://www.computerworld.co.nz/webhome.nsf/0/9624CB39A4EE23A0CC256CF5001
1DB4F?opendocument

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2003/0327.shtml


Cheers

Seeby Woodhouse
Managing Director

Orcon Internet Limited - www.orcon.net.nz

____________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED" <***@net4u.co.nz>
To: <***@wise.net.nz>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: ATTN: Systems Administrator / Management
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Hello there,
I would like to introduce Net4U Limited to you as an alternative
bandwidth
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
wholesaler.
We currently have a large network around New Zealand. We currently
supply
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
5 other ISP's in New Zealand with Bandwidth and supply our own
customer
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
base with bandwidth for Dialup, ADSL, Wireless, Frame-Relay, ATM,
Fiber,
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Ethernet.
We connect to many providers around New Zealand and are also a peer on
the
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Auckland Peering Exchange (www.ape.net.nz).
64k - 2048k = $2000+GST (per megabit)
2048k - 4096k = $1800+GST (per megabit)
4096k - 10240k = $1600+GST (per megabit)
10240k = POA.
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can
also
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied
to
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
you by your current provider to us.
Above all, we can also deliver Domestic / International Traffic via a
BGP
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Feed on 2 Different PVC's.
Please let me know what you think of our offer.
Regards,
Sahil Gupta
Senior Account Manager
NET4U LIMITED
Phone: 0508-263-848
Fax: 07-8582659
Mobile: 029-366-6375
Steve Phillips
2003-07-03 01:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Davidson
____________
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: ATTN: Systems Administrator / Management
[snippage]
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can also
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied to
you by your current provider to us.
That would be a neat trick. Almost worth taking him up on that just to
watch him fail dismally.
--
Steve.
Craig Whitmore
2003-07-03 02:12:36 UTC
Permalink
If anyone had forgotten, where is the "Report" from Sigel Systems about
Net4u's runnings over the last 3 months. I believe the impartial 3rd party
was hired as one of net4u's staff a very short while after (so couldn't be
impartial)

Thanks
Craig
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Post by Keith Davidson
[snippage]
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can also
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied to
you by your current provider to us.
That would be a neat trick. Almost worth taking him up on that just to
watch him fail dismally.
Gordon Smith
2003-07-03 01:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Yep, we got it too...

Looked to me like a nicely worded request to be RBL'd :-)

Gordon Smith CCNA
Network Operations Manager

MoreNet Ltd

PGP Fingerprint: 4B12 FBE4 784A 3294 6637 4587 AB6F C893 AB2C 952C
Steve Phillips
2003-07-03 02:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seeby Woodhouse
I guess that Sahil finally decided that the dust had settled enough that
he could start selling off some of his stolen bandwidth
I noticed the costs were rather below the market rates from a number of
players in the market that _do_ actually sell bandwidth internationally..

Maybe he's found another way around paying the carriers for their services.. ?

one wonders if it all hinges upon him getting peering partners at APE and WIX..

does anyone actually trust net4u enough to peer with them.. ?
--
Steve.
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 03:35:08 UTC
Permalink
We have made a brief report which is not for public viewing, but which has identified a small number of issues on the Net4U network (which were quickly rectified) that were as a result of previous employees. We found nothing that was causing deliberate loss of bandwidth to any other party. We did not fully complete the work due to budget restraints, however we did cover most of the important aspects. Some of our recommendations have been implemented, and sadly others have not been done, but Net4U are operating somewhat better than they were.

We no longer oversee the operation of Net4U, but have kept in touch with them, and assist with other matters both business related and technical, and feel Net4U & Sahil are slowly "growing up" so to speak, but I expect mystiques will still be made from time to time. None of us are perfect.

I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed" email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no justification for this blatant deformation.

I must say that I also disagree with the method of advertising chosen. Had I been consulted I would have recommended against it, but in saying that, I welcome email in my inbox that relates directly to my line of business and would rather receive such email as opposed to the ones about increasing the size of certain body parts or some other "amazing offer" which we see all to often of late, depending on how good your mail filters are.

It doesn't take much for everyone to see that some of you are making an issue simply because it's Sahil and Net4U, and because you were a reject at school who was picked on and bullied, and now have a psychological disorder resulting in you playing out the role of your boyhood deamon from school, dishing out what you received.

Without naming anyone, I would also like to point out that there are those of you on this list making such accusations who are the last people to do so, or should we raise the matter of a VAST amount of bandwidth stolen from Telecom for a number of months, by a much larger ISP than Net4U, who even taught another ISP's network administrator how to do it only days before Telecom figured it all out... or perhaps I could send the list a copy of some forged court documents? To these few people I say, I suggest you stop stirring the pot and leave the past alone, or you will get more than just a little of it on you.

I think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people are here to get work/business done.

Lets just get on with our work please everyone.


Cheers,

Richard Parkinson
(Director)
Sigel Data Systems Ltd.





-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Whitmore [mailto:***@orcon.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 2:13 p.m.
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz; Steve Phillips
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering



If anyone had forgotten, where is the "Report" from Sigel Systems about
Net4u's runnings over the last 3 months. I believe the impartial 3rd party
was hired as one of net4u's staff a very short while after (so couldn't be
impartial)

Thanks
Craig
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Post by Keith Davidson
[snippage]
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can
also
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied
to
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
you by your current provider to us.
That would be a neat trick. Almost worth taking him up on that just to
watch him fail dismally.
Juha Saarinen
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Parkinson
I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed"
email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations
and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which
left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no
justification for this blatant deformation.
Priceless.
--
Juha Saarinen
Jeremy Brooking
2003-07-03 03:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Parkinson
It doesn't take much for everyone to see that some of you are making
an issue simply because it's Sahil and Net4U, and because you were a
reject at school who was picked on and bullied, and now have a
psychological disorder resulting in you playing out the role of your
boyhood deamon from school, dishing out what you received.
No, he is receiving the same treatment _any_ spammer/spam support
service would get.Right Seeby?

UCE is UCE, and the fact you find it _relevant_ doesnt change that.
Post by Richard Parkinson
I think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the
motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me
wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people
are here to get work/business done.
As one has to question the motivation behind your post.
Dan Clark
2003-07-03 04:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Re: [nznog] APE PeeringI have to agree with Richard here, the problem is the young man who set this particular ISP up has historicly been ignorant as to some of the ethical rules and unwritten policy's of the internet community. We all make mistakes and maybe he just needs a little guidance and support from fellow ISP's who, will no doubt have started from penny's in the early days themselves.

Regards
Dan Clark
Network Manager
Scarfies.Net Ltd

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Parkinson
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering


We have made a brief report which is not for public viewing, but which has identified a small number of issues on the Net4U network (which were quickly rectified) that were as a result of previous employees. We found nothing that was causing deliberate loss of bandwidth to any other party. We did not fully complete the work due to budget restraints, however we did cover most of the important aspects. Some of our recommendations have been implemented, and sadly others have not been done, but Net4U are operating somewhat better than they were.

We no longer oversee the operation of Net4U, but have kept in touch with them, and assist with other matters both business related and technical, and feel Net4U & Sahil are slowly "growing up" so to speak, but I expect mystiques will still be made from time to time. None of us are perfect.

I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed" email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no justification for this blatant deformation.

I must say that I also disagree with the method of advertising chosen. Had I been consulted I would have recommended against it, but in saying that, I welcome email in my inbox that relates directly to my line of business and would rather receive such email as opposed to the ones about increasing the size of certain body parts or some other "amazing offer" which we see all to often of late, depending on how good your mail filters are.

It doesn't take much for everyone to see that some of you are making an issue simply because it's Sahil and Net4U, and because you were a reject at school who was picked on and bullied, and now have a psychological disorder resulting in you playing out the role of your boyhood deamon from school, dishing out what you received.

Without naming anyone, I would also like to point out that there are those of you on this list making such accusations who are the last people to do so, or should we raise the matter of a VAST amount of bandwidth stolen from Telecom for a number of months, by a much larger ISP than Net4U, who even taught another ISP's network administrator how to do it only days before Telecom figured it all out... or perhaps I could send the list a copy of some forged court documents? To these few people I say, I suggest you stop stirring the pot and leave the past alone, or you will get more than just a little of it on you.

I think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people are here to get work/business done.

Lets just get on with our work please everyone.


Cheers,

Richard Parkinson
(Director)
Sigel Data Systems Ltd.




-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Whitmore [mailto:***@orcon.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 2:13 p.m.
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz; Steve Phillips
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering


If anyone had forgotten, where is the "Report" from Sigel Systems about
Net4u's runnings over the last 3 months. I believe the impartial 3rd party
was hired as one of net4u's staff a very short while after (so couldn't be
impartial)

Thanks
Craig
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Post by Keith Davidson
[snippage]
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can
also
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied
to
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
you by your current provider to us.
That would be a neat trick. Almost worth taking him up on that just to
watch him fail dismally.
_______________________________________________
Nznog mailing list
***@list.waikato.ac.nz
http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 03:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Accept for a spelling error or two. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Juha Saarinen [mailto:***@saarinen.org]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:44 p.m.
Cc: NZNOG
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Richard Parkinson
I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed"
email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations
and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which
left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no
justification for this blatant deformation.
Priceless.


--
Juha Saarinen
Matthew Poole
2003-07-03 03:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Getting very OT here, but that word is EXCEPT!
Post by Richard Parkinson
Accept for a spelling error or two. :)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:44 p.m.
Cc: NZNOG
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Richard Parkinson
I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed"
email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations
and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which
left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no
justification for this blatant deformation.
Priceless.
--
Juha Saarinen
_______________________________________________
Nznog mailing list
http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 03:54:25 UTC
Permalink
And I knew this as soon as I saw it hit the list.

Cheers



-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Poole [mailto:***@p00le.net]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:45 p.m.
To: Richard Parkinson
Cc: NZNOG
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering




Getting very OT here, but that word is EXCEPT!
Post by Richard Parkinson
Accept for a spelling error or two. :)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:44 p.m.
Cc: NZNOG
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Richard Parkinson
I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed"
email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations
and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which
left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no
justification for this blatant deformation.
Priceless.
--
Juha Saarinen
_______________________________________________
Nznog mailing list
http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Gordon Smith
2003-07-03 03:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Richard,

Was there any point to that message at all?

Firstly, spam is spam, not "distributed" email. It is unsolicited
commercial email, which this was.

Secondly, I think you'll find that ANY provider that has previously
behaved as poorly would attract a similar response.
I really don't care if they are mystical or deformed, this is a breach
of what is generally accepted as "acceptable conduct".

Perhaps this thread should die - it has very little to do with network
operations.


Gordon Smith CCNA
Network Operations Manager

MoreNet Ltd

PGP Fingerprint: 4B12 FBE4 784A 3294 6637 4587 AB6F C893 AB2C 952C
Craig Spiers
2003-07-03 03:51:32 UTC
Permalink
I'm inclined to agree with this. Lets stop it all here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Smith [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:47 p.m.
To: 'Richard Parkinson'; ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering

Richard,

Was there any point to that message at all?

Firstly, spam is spam, not "distributed" email. It is unsolicited
commercial email, which this was.

Secondly, I think you'll find that ANY provider that has previously
behaved as poorly would attract a similar response.
I really don't care if they are mystical or deformed, this is a breach
of what is generally accepted as "acceptable conduct".

Perhaps this thread should die - it has very little to do with network
operations.


Gordon Smith CCNA
Network Operations Manager

MoreNet Ltd

PGP Fingerprint: 4B12 FBE4 784A 3294 6637 4587 AB6F C893 AB2C 952C
Simon Byrnand
2003-07-03 03:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Parkinson
I must say that I also disagree with the method of advertising chosen. Had
I been consulted I would have recommended against it, but in saying that,
I welcome email in my inbox that relates directly to my line of business
and would rather receive such email as opposed to the ones about
increasing the size of certain body parts or some other "amazing offer"
which we see all to often of late, depending on how good your mail filters
are.
Sorry, but that doesn't wash with me, or I suspect most members of the
list. Spam is Spam whether its trying to sell me Viagra or Bandwidth.
Anybody that received that mailout (fortunately I didn't) who had no
previous business dealings with Net4U could be legitimately annoyed by it.
The sample "message" appeared to be addressed to soa@ which suggests it
might have been taken from domain or APNIC contact details.
Post by Richard Parkinson
It doesn't take much for everyone to see that some of you are making an
issue simply because it's Sahil and Net4U, and because you were a reject
at school who was picked on and bullied, and now have a psychological
disorder resulting in you playing out the role of your boyhood deamon from
school, dishing out what you received.
Pot, Kettle, Black ?

Regards,
Simon
Keith Davidson
2003-07-03 04:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Byrnand
Sorry, but that doesn't wash with me, or I suspect most members of the
list. Spam is Spam whether its trying to sell me Viagra or Bandwidth.
Anybody that received that mailout (fortunately I didn't) who had no
previous business dealings with Net4U could be legitimately annoyed by it.
might have been taken from domain or APNIC contact details.
That's the whole point - and if it looks like spam and smells like spam,
then lo and behold, it is a spam.

The alarming thing is that Net4U just don't *get it*. Subsequent to this
morning's post to nznog, I received the following "add insult to injury"
message from Net4U.

Keith Davidson
_______________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED" <***@net4u.co.nz>
To: "Keith Davidson" <@wise.net.nz>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Simon Byrnand
I was unaware that Wise Net was actually at the APE as routes for Wise Net
seem to be coming from Orcon Internet.
However, if you're keen drop me a line.
Regards,
Sahil Gupta
Senior Account Manager
NET4U LIMITED
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 03:57:57 UTC
Permalink
I did say disagree with the "spam" method used.

I agree this thread is a waste of time and should die.



-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Smith [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 3:47 p.m.
To: Richard Parkinson; ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering



Richard,

Was there any point to that message at all?

Firstly, spam is spam, not "distributed" email. It is unsolicited
commercial email, which this was.

Secondly, I think you'll find that ANY provider that has previously
behaved as poorly would attract a similar response.
I really don't care if they are mystical or deformed, this is a breach
of what is generally accepted as "acceptable conduct".

Perhaps this thread should die - it has very little to do with network
operations.


Gordon Smith CCNA
Network Operations Manager

MoreNet Ltd

PGP Fingerprint: 4B12 FBE4 784A 3294 6637 4587 AB6F C893 AB2C 952C
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 04:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Dan.

There are one or two ISP's and their administrators out there that have been VERY generous, sympathetic and helpful towards Sahil & Net4U and yet more who have been giving Net4U advise, and telling him off when needed :). As I say, Net4U are "growing up" slowly, but like me, are bound to make mistakes along the way.
I enjoy helping others where help is needed, but sometimes this pisses other people off, especially those that don't think that particular person or business deserves to be helped or to get ahead, and I'm not just talking about Net4U.

Anyway, rest assured, he has just had a verbal assault from me for yet again, not thinking carefully and using common sense before acting. ie sending Spam etc

Thanks for your patience and understanding everyone. He wont be doing that again. :)


Cheers,


Richard.







-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Clark [mailto:***@scarfies.net]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 4:04 p.m.
To: Richard Parkinson; ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering


I have to agree with Richard here, the problem is the young man who set this particular ISP up has historicly been ignorant as to some of the ethical rules and unwritten policy's of the internet community. We all make mistakes and maybe he just needs a little guidance and support from fellow ISP's who, will no doubt have started from penny's in the early days themselves.

Regards
Dan Clark
Network Manager
Scarfies.Net Ltd


----- Original Message -----
From: Richard <mailto:***@sigel.co.nz> Parkinson
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: [nznog] APE Peering

We have made a brief report which is not for public viewing, but which has identified a small number of issues on the Net4U network (which were quickly rectified) that were as a result of previous employees. We found nothing that was causing deliberate loss of bandwidth to any other party. We did not fully complete the work due to budget restraints, however we did cover most of the important aspects. Some of our recommendations have been implemented, and sadly others have not been done, but Net4U are operating somewhat better than they were.

We no longer oversee the operation of Net4U, but have kept in touch with them, and assist with other matters both business related and technical, and feel Net4U & Sahil are slowly "growing up" so to speak, but I expect mystiques will still be made from time to time. None of us are perfect.

I can assure you the bandwidth offered by Net4U in that "distributed" email is legitimate, and I should warn you that continued accusations and alligations are a direct attack against me and my company, which left Net4U operating legally and above board, and there is no justification for this blatant deformation.

I must say that I also disagree with the method of advertising chosen. Had I been consulted I would have recommended against it, but in saying that, I welcome email in my inbox that relates directly to my line of business and would rather receive such email as opposed to the ones about increasing the size of certain body parts or some other "amazing offer" which we see all to often of late, depending on how good your mail filters are.

It doesn't take much for everyone to see that some of you are making an issue simply because it's Sahil and Net4U, and because you were a reject at school who was picked on and bullied, and now have a psychological disorder resulting in you playing out the role of your boyhood deamon from school, dishing out what you received.

Without naming anyone, I would also like to point out that there are those of you on this list making such accusations who are the last people to do so, or should we raise the matter of a VAST amount of bandwidth stolen from Telecom for a number of months, by a much larger ISP than Net4U, who even taught another ISP's network administrator how to do it only days before Telecom figured it all out... or perhaps I could send the list a copy of some forged court documents? To these few people I say, I suggest you stop stirring the pot and leave the past alone, or you will get more than just a little of it on you.

I think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people are here to get work/business done.

Lets just get on with our work please everyone.


Cheers,

Richard Parkinson
(Director)
Sigel Data Systems Ltd.





-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Whitmore [mailto:***@orcon.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 2:13 p.m.
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz; Steve Phillips
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering



If anyone had forgotten, where is the "Report" from Sigel Systems about
Net4u's runnings over the last 3 months. I believe the impartial 3rd party
was hired as one of net4u's staff a very short while after (so couldn't be
impartial)

Thanks
Craig
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
Post by Keith Davidson
[snippage]
We can deliver using several methods as I've outlined above and can
also
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
take care of transporting your existing I.P. Address ranges supplied
to
Post by Steve Phillips
Post by Sahil Gupta - NET4U LIMITED
you by your current provider to us.
That would be a neat trick. Almost worth taking him up on that just to
watch him fail dismally.
_______________________________________________
Nznog mailing list
***@list.waikato.ac.nz
http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog




_____
Dave Howes
2003-07-03 06:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Re: [nznog] APE PeeringI think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people are here to get work/business done.

Lets just get on with our work please everyone.
Each time the topic of Net4u has come up I've resisted posting as previously the entire situation was already at boiling point, but suggesting people are here to play when they're obviously just frustrated by actions that they see as detremental and disrespectful to other New Zealand Network Operators really rubs me the wrong way.



Net4u does seem to be operating in a more legal fashion than before but they're still not admin friendly by any stretch of the imagination.



I've received spam from net4u customers to domains I previously managed, I contacted Net4u to advise them of this (***@net4u.co.nz) but have never received any response.



I was also informed of a 'hole' in their security through which anyone can log into the net4u network and gain free ADSL service by use of an 'admin' account, I emailed the administrator of net4u to advise of this but despite sending two emails I never received a response and (I just tested) the hole still seems to be wide open.



I'm glad you see the spam from Net4u as a bad thing as even though the operators of Net4u are (reasonably) new to the game, in this 'net enabled' age even the newest player has no excuse for thinking that unsolicited
commercial email to a soa address is a good idea, the same goes for their previous dubious actions.



You can feel free to view comments like these as 'pettiness' but I for one am glad to be informed of the actions (or inaction) of New Zealand ISPs even if the observations are at times coloured by external factors.



--

Regards,

Dave Howes.
J S Russell
2003-07-03 05:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Fenemor
I also received a copy of that spam message, as was most disapointed
that an ISP resorts to sending spam to get business. How many other
people received it?
ICONZ did not get one of these, but then that's not surprising, since
net4u mail is rejected by our mail servers completely due to their total
lack of response to complaints to ***@net4u about spam from their users.

Now that I've found out that not only are they ignoring complaints about
spam and RBL-like consequences of ignoring those complaints, but that
MANAGEMENT of net4u are themselves spamming (!), I am giving some serious
thought to simply null-routing their netblocks at our borders.

JSR
--
John S Russell | Big Geek | Doing geek stuff.
Richard Parkinson
2003-07-03 07:51:55 UTC
Permalink
You have some valid points here. The whole thing is quite disappointing, and for many, quite frustrating.

This ***@net4u is also becoming a sore point, and clearly there has been an issue with this address. I can only chase up as much as was passed on to me. There are a number of other recommended tasks which were to be carried out but have not :(

Please contact me off-list with more details, and I will be happy to deal with things.

As I said, I'm sill helping Net4U (Unpaid I might add) here and there when I am not involved with my regular clients.
If anyone else is reading this and has ANY issues with Net4U that have been ignored, please feel free to contact me off-list or directly on 021409987, and I will to my best to deal with things.

This is not the place for this nonsense, so lets get all this off-list, contact me, and lets get everyone happy.

If no one has any other abuse they want to throw this way, perhaps we can move back to other interesting threads such as Multicast which I enjoyed following?

How about why ISP's should/shouldn't be able to control assignment of IP addresses on ADSL Starter? Anyone have any views on this?


Cheers,

Richard.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Howes [mailto:***@doomx.net]
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2003 6:49 p.m.
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering




I think we should all take a good look at ourselves, and the motivation behind the pettiness that from time to time, makes me wonder just how many children play on this list, and how many people are here to get work/business done.

Lets just get on with our work please everyone.

Each time the topic of Net4u has come up I've resisted posting as previously the entire situation was already at boiling point, but suggesting people are here to play when they're obviously just frustrated by actions that they see as detremental and disrespectful to other New Zealand Network Operators really rubs me the wrong way.



Net4u does seem to be operating in a more legal fashion than before but they're still not admin friendly by any stretch of the imagination.



I've received spam from net4u customers to domains I previously managed, I contacted Net4u to advise them of this ( ***@net4u.co.nz) but have never received any response.



I was also informed of a 'hole' in their security through which anyone can log into the net4u network and gain free ADSL service by use of an 'admin' account, I emailed the administrator of net4u to advise of this but despite sending two emails I never received a response and (I just tested) the hole still seems to be wide open.



I'm glad you see the spam from Net4u as a bad thing as even though the operators of Net4u are (reasonably) new to the game, in this 'net enabled' age even the newest player has no excuse for thinking that unsolicited
commercial email to a soa address is a good idea, the same goes for their previous dubious actions.



You can feel free to view comments like these as 'pettiness' but I for one am glad to be informed of the actions (or inaction) of New Zealand ISPs even if the observations are at times coloured by external factors.



--

Regards,

Dave Howes.
-
2003-07-03 11:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Sahil said to me, as well as publically on the site that the "auditor's" report would be made available publically on the website. After a number of months I saw him again, and casually asked, whats up with that auditor's report, and he shrugged it off, as if to say "that was a joke". Secondly Sahil obviously did know about it, so shrugging it off as his staff's fault is amusing in the least
Nathan Ward
2003-07-03 21:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by -
Sahil said to me, as well as publically on the site that the "auditor's"
report would be made available publically on the website. After a number
of months I saw him again, and casually asked, whats up with that
auditor's report, and he shrugged it off, as if to say "that was a joke".
Secondly Sahil obviously did know about it, so shrugging it off as his
staff's fault is amusing in the least
I find it hard to understand why there must be more abuse of net4u & co. on
this list.
Surely there's been enough net4u-bashing over the past few months that we
all have made up our minds whether or not to consider them to provide us
with Internet access or peering in the future.
So why must more and more things be brought forward?
All it does is clogs my inbox.

So shush.

On another note, Whos going to Netforum?
A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too
promising..
--
Nathan Ward
Esphion Ltd.
Jeremy Brooking
2003-07-03 21:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathan Ward
On another note, Whos going to Netforum?
A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too
promising..
There are those of us who would love too...


But cannot afford the insane pricing.
Richard Patterson
2003-07-03 04:45:34 UTC
Permalink
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<pre>As did I

-Richard


&gt;&gt;<i> Well, I might have been interested in peering, except for having received </i>&gt;&gt;<i> the following Spam from Net4U earlier today... </i>&gt;&gt;<i> </i>&gt;&gt;<i> Keith Davidson
</i>
&gt;I also received a copy of that spam message, as was most disapointed
&gt;that an ISP resorts to sending spam to get business. How many other
&gt;people received it?
&gt;
&gt;Neil Fenemor</pre>
</body>
</html>
Simon Lyall
2003-07-04 00:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Brooking
Post by Nathan Ward
On another note, Whos going to Netforum?
A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too
promising..
There are those of us who would love too...
But cannot afford the insane pricing.
<grump>
By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in central
Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500
bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when
this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving).

If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5%
training budget then it'll cover it.

Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP
forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day and
nobody much attended.
</grump>

I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are not
going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you have
for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend.

Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm
not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any
feedback anonymous.

I went to a little peering forum in Sydney organised by Equinix a couple
of weeks ago and there were around 25 ISPs that attended that. It was just
an afternoon from 2-6 with 3-4 quicks talks and plenty of coffee and
drinks in between to meet people (and over a dozen went out to dinner
afterwards).

Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual
data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power, aircon,
security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there already so
it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower seems to be
the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do with something
closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or half a dozen racks
worht of space)

Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow
we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I
remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip
D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have
happened (feel free to correct me).
--
Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: ***@ihug.co.nz
Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: ***@darkmere.gen.nz
Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
Jeremy Brooking
2003-07-04 01:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Lyall
<grump>
By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in central
Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500
bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when
this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving).
If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5%
training budget then it'll cover it.
Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP
forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day and
nobody much attended.
</grump>
Perhaps my _insane_ comment was a bit of an overstatement.

First post I saw regarding it was 9th of 3rd. So that would make it
about $50 a week.
And of course, we all have $50 spare a week dont we?
Craig Spiers
2003-07-04 00:36:21 UTC
Permalink
As far as I'm aware, Philip D'ath does indeed have a co-location centre.
Its BIG.. Has large Generators. And even bigger air-conditioning units..
I'm not sure if he's still running it or not though.

Regards,

Craig Spiers
Director
ConceptNet Limited
Phone +64 9 414 4297
Fax +64 9 915 2559
Mob +64 21 571 202

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Lyall [mailto:***@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 4 July 2003 12:28 p.m.
To: Jeremy Brooking
Cc: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Jeremy Brooking
Post by Nathan Ward
On another note, Whos going to Netforum?
A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look
too
Post by Jeremy Brooking
Post by Nathan Ward
promising..
There are those of us who would love too...
But cannot afford the insane pricing.
<grump>
By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in
central
Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500
bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when
this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving).

If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5%
training budget then it'll cover it.

Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP
forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day
and
nobody much attended.
</grump>

I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are
not
going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you
have
for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend.

Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm
not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any
feedback anonymous.

I went to a little peering forum in Sydney organised by Equinix a couple
of weeks ago and there were around 25 ISPs that attended that. It was
just
an afternoon from 2-6 with 3-4 quicks talks and plenty of coffee and
drinks in between to meet people (and over a dozen went out to dinner
afterwards).

Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual
data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power,
aircon,
security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there already so
it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower seems to be
the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do with something
closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or half a dozen
racks
worht of space)

Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow
we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I
remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip
D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have
happened (feel free to correct me).
--
Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work:
***@ihug.co.nz
Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: ***@darkmere.gen.nz
Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web:
http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
Joe Abley
2003-07-04 00:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Lyall
I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are
not
going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you
have
for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend.
Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm
not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any
feedback anonymous.
At other *NOG meetings I've been to, people seem to find it worth
attending more or less regardless of the content being presented, or
the cost (I know several people in the US who have been unemployed for
a year or more, and yet still religiously attend the NANOG meetings,
paying out of their own pockets).

The presentation/workshop programme and/or opportunity to showcase
products or services is the management justification for being there,
but there's still a lot of personal and business benefit to just being
cooped up with a bunch of other operators in a hotel with little else
to do but talk and drink beer.

It only takes a chance five-minute conversation with someone else which
results in a new transit deal, some new cost-sharing strategy, a
peerting session or even a new job, and suddenly the cost of the hotel
bill and the conference fee look like pretty good value for money.


Joe
Chris O'Donoghue
2003-07-04 01:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Well perhaps you should work on your management a bit more.
It took all of about 5 seconds to convince me that this was worthwhile
for my sysadmins to attend.

But then again maybe I'm biased, cos I went last year.

Chris


Chris O'Donoghue
Technology Manager
Online & Digital
TVNZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Friday, 4 July 2003 1:01 p.m.
To: Simon Lyall
Cc: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering
Post by Simon Lyall
<grump>
By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in
central
Post by Simon Lyall
Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500
bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year
when
Post by Simon Lyall
this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving).
If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5%
training budget then it'll cover it.
Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little
ISP
Post by Simon Lyall
forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day
and
Post by Simon Lyall
nobody much attended.
</grump>
Perhaps my _insane_ comment was a bit of an overstatement.

First post I saw regarding it was 9th of 3rd. So that would make it
about $50 a week.
And of course, we all have $50 spare a week dont we?


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Joe Abley
2003-07-04 01:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Abley
It only takes a chance five-minute conversation with someone else
which results in a new transit deal, some new cost-sharing strategy, a
peerting session or even a new job, and suddenly the cost of the hotel
bill and the conference fee look like pretty good value for money.
Peering, not peerting. Peerting is still illegal in some jurisdictions.
Matthew G Brown
2003-07-04 02:34:53 UTC
Permalink
When I was at CeBit in Sydney we spoke to several ISP's about peering as
we are deploying service to NSW, With the lack of true Deregulation
people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite
ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo
services because of the peering facilities many of these provide.
Otherwise data costs can end up killing you. We are deploying Offsite
Backup servers to Australia and we are actually about to talk to Equinix
because data costs where going to make it a "to hard" basket project.

Anyone know what is happening with the Perth Peering Exchange? I heard
about it a year ago and ive never heard it mentioned since.? I am of the
understanding its been running for a while well.

Best Regards

Matthew G Brown
Managing Director
B & R Holdings LIMITED
Nelson, New Zealand
Ph: 027 4807731
Http://www.brh.co.nz

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Lyall [mailto:***@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: 04 July 2003 12:28
To: Jeremy Brooking
Cc: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering
<snip>
Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual
data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power,
aircon, security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there
already so it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower
seems to be the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do
with something closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or
half a dozen racks worht of space)

Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow
we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I
remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip
D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have
happened (feel free to correct me).
--
Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work:
***@ihug.co.nz
Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: ***@darkmere.gen.nz
Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web:
http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
Matthew Poole
2003-07-04 02:45:43 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, Matthew G Brown wrote:

*SNIP*
Post by Matthew G Brown
people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite
ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo
*SNIP*

NZ is ahead of the world on this. The ability for organisations,
regardless of size, to peer for the cost of access is unique. Sure, T1
carriers in the US peer with each other, but an ISP that was even the size
of the CallPlus group (relatively speaking) would get laughed at if they
wanted to peer with a T1 for the cost of circuit access to a common point.
Hamish MacEwan
2003-07-04 03:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Poole
*SNIP*
Post by Matthew G Brown
people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite
ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo
*SNIP*
NZ is ahead of the world on this. The ability for organisations,
regardless of size, to peer for the cost of access is unique.
And pioneered by CityLink's PublicLAN and APE activities...

NZ is sometimes described as "overly egalitarian."

And so small, and so far away, we can't really afford to indulge in
self-destructive internecine behaviour. It is possibly part of the
reason (small and well connected) that NZ can deal with defectors, aka
Net4ME, as easily as we do.

Concepts like ease of affinity, or "social capital" depend on trust,
where that can be established quickly, those who are not trustworthy can
be excluded quickly. Its not a meritocracy, certainly not a closed
self-selecting one, its just open.

P2P anarchy really, or better, E2E.

"Thus cooperation can emerge even in a world of unconditional defection.
The development cannot take place if is is tried only by scattered
individuals who have no chance to interact with each other. But
cooperation can emerge from small clusters of discriminating
individuals, as long as these individuals have even a small proportion
of their interactions with each other. Moreover, if nice strategies
(those which are never the first to defect) come to be adopted by
virtually everyone, then those individuals can afford to be generous in
dealing with any others. By doing so well with each other, a population
of nice rules can protect themselves against clusters of individuals
using any other strategy just as well as they can protect themselves
against single individuals. But for a nice strategy to be stable in the
collective sense, it must be provocable. So mutual cooperation can
emerge in a world of egoists without central control by starting with a
cluster of individuals who rely on reciprocity."

Robert Axelrod "The Evolution of Co-operation"

Sounds like NZNOG to me.


Hamish.

PS: http://www.opendemocracy.net/themes/article-8-1319.jsp
--
When cryptography is outlawed,
bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--Floating Around the Internet
Simon Lyall
2003-07-04 03:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew G Brown
Anyone know what is happening with the Perth Peering Exchange? I heard
about it a year ago and ive never heard it mentioned since.? I am of the
understanding its been running for a while well.
WAIX is going pretty good from all accounts. They claim to be the largest
peering exchange in the southern hemesphere which might be true (I've had
no luck getting access for graphs of APE so I don't know how much traffic
it does in aggregate).

In Australia the main options are PipeNetworks in Adelaide, Brisbane,
Melbourne and Sydney, WAIX in Perth and Equinix in Sydney. Anything else
is AFAIK pretty much a waste of time. Interstate data also costs the
earth (at least if you are buying less than a STM-1 worth). We won't
mention the Big 4.

I was talking with the guys at WAIX about maybe getting various people to
buy a part share in a link from WAIX to Sydney (probably equinix). Someone
also suggested maybe doing the same between APE and Sydney as well if
people know of options for cheap Transtasman bandwidth (hint hint).
--
Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: ***@ihug.co.nz
Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: ***@darkmere.gen.nz
Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
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